About the Host
Ryan is an entrepreneur, podcast host of the show Life After Business and the co-owner of Solidity Financial. Having personally experienced the hazards of selling a business, he joined up with his friend Brandon Wood to educate others on the process. Through their business (Solidity Financial), they provide a platform for entrepreneurs called Growth and Exit Planning that helps in exit planning, value building and financial management.
About the Guest
Luther Ranheim was born and raised in Minneapolis. His love for the Twin Cities is an integral piece to his job as a gift planner at St. Paul & Minnesota Foundations (SPMCF).
Luther combines his early career knowledge in banking with more recent non-profit development experience. Previously, he worked for Wells Fargo Private Client Services and Bremer Bank. Recently, he has been involved with non-profit development for the MacPhail Center for Music, Greater Twin Cities United Way, Minnesota Orchestra, and Alzheimer’s Association.
He graduated from Lawrence University. Currently, Luther serves on several boards, including the Association of Fundraising Professionals and The Singers — Minnesota Choral Artists. Also, he is on the Alumni Council of Greater Twin Cities Youth Symphonies.
Luther and his wife support the Twin Cities’ arts community by attending concerts and events. They enjoy spending time with their dog, cheering on the Minnesota Vikings and Minnesota United teams, and grilling food using their Big Green Egg.
If you listen, you will learn:
- Luther’s background in financial services.
- Why Luther transitioned to fundraising and philanthropy.
- SPMCF grants assets to charitable organizations and helps set up philanthropy tools.
- The definition of philanthropy, and how it works.
- How conversations identify your passion, purpose and possibilities.
- The challenges that come with fundraising and philanthropy.
- The number of nonprofits that SPMCF works with and success to significance stories.
- How to find charities and become involved by using your knowledge to make an impact.
- Who do you know? Who can you call? Connecting with the right people.
- One of the silver linings with baby boomers retiring is the significant transfer of wealth.
- How to track, measure, and evaluate return on investment (ROI).
- SPMCF’s process to evaluate and assess organization’s potential to receive funds.
- The different ways to address your “why” and financial targets.
- Luther offers an overview of donor-advised funds and how they are used.
- What are the different tax implications and write offs?
- Entrepreneurs who sell their business lose their platform for funding charitable donations.
- Create a structure to leave a legacy and continue to support the community.
Full Transcript
Announcer: Welcome to Life After Business, the podcast where your host, Ryan Tansom, brings you all the information you need to exit your company and explore what life can be like on the other side.
Ryan Tansom: Hey everybody and welcome back to the Life After Business podcast. This is episode 132. If you're interested on how philanthropy, charitable donations, nonprofits all fit into your exit plan, your tax plan, and your life after business and your sense of purpose. This episode's totally for you. Don't worry. If you're thinking that this episode is going to be about how you made a bunch of money, you should write a check to a nonprofit because you did so well and everybody should benefit and it's also not about how in your life after business that you're going to get complete fulfillment by sitting on a board of a nonprofit because it's so different than running a company and the adrenaline that comes with being an entrepreneur. This episode is specifically unique because Luther Ranheim who's on the show today. He is a part of Saint Paul and Minnesota foundations and their business model is super unique and we address different topics like how do you pick a nonprofit or charity to be involved in? How do you determine whether you're getting a rate of return on the investment that you're putting into that charity and that you're making sure that you're not just paying a bunch of executive director salaries, but there's actually an impact that's happening because of the funds that you put in there.
Ryan Tansom: So a little bit of background on Luther and the St Paul and Minnesota Foundation. One is that if you're not from Minnesota, there's foundations like this across the US that you can find one; two and those same kind of structure and business model exists. So don't worry, this episode is still 100% applicable to you. So the Saint Paul Minnesota Foundation manages over one point $5 billion in assets and they support more than 2000 charitable organizations in Minnesota. And their role as it relates to you as the potential investor or philanthropistsand the charitable organizations is super unique. So their role with the charitable organizations is to determine what is the purpose of the funds, what is the impact, how do we measure it? They're determining that this charity deserves this kind of money because they're going to do this with it. And how do we measure what impact they're getting?
Ryan Tansom: It's amazing because I think it's fantastic that someone's holding all these people accountable and giving the funds to the right people for the right reasons. And they can then help you determine what are the places that you want to put your money. Is it topic a, B, or c, or is it x, Y, and z? And then helping you guide how much you should be putting in there and why and what are they gonna do with it. But the other really interesting thing that they help you do is they'll help understand the tax ramifications. How to put this in your exit plan, your estate plan, and then what are you going to do with the funds afterwards? But not only is this about giving, but with the sheer exposure that they have with the different topics and the different charitable organizations, they can help you connect the dots about what you care about and what kind of involvement do you want with these different people and these different charitable organizations.
Ryan Tansom: If you want to be directly involved and you really want to roll up your sleeves, they'll help you connect the dots versus just writing a check. The reason I think this is so important, which you'll hear in the episode, is after we sold, I was on a journey of trying to find some things that were really important to me, which is mental health and some other different topics. And it was so difficult to find the people that I should be talking to, the charities that actually wanted my help and our money. And so Luther walks through all those different things in this episode. And I think that this is one of the first crucial steps that you can do to understanding how charitable donations fit into your tax and exit plan. But then also how do you start finding a purpose outside of just running cash flow statements and growing the value of your company when you really can make a huge impact by rolling up your sleeves, putting your expertise and your knowledge and experience behind an organization and a and a topic that you care about and potentially the funds that you got a tax write off on, and knowing that you can really, really make an impact. So without further ado, here's Luther Ranheim.
Announcer: This episode of Life After Business is sponsored by GEXP Collaborative. Their proven process gives you clarity on all of your exit options and how those options impact your financial success, timing and future happiness. Sell your company on your timeframe to the buyer of your choice at the price you want.
Ryan Tansom: Good Morning Luther. How are you?
Luther Ranheim: Good. How are you Ryan?
Ryan Tansom: Doing good. I'm excited to have you on the show today. I think it's a topic that a lot of our listeners think about and maybe not at the right timing or they get information from different areas or there's, you know, different spectrums of level of understanding of literally what is philanthropy, is it, you know, all the different ways that you can actually be giving your money and involvement. And you guys have a very interesting model and a and a lot of, a lot of experience. And for the listeners before we kinda dive right into what you're doing now and some of the experience that you've had and what you guys are trying to accomplish is kind of give us like how did you get into the nonprofit space and you know, what, what led you to what you're doing today?
Luther Ranheim: Great. That's a great question. Ryan. You know, I think I come from a unique background. I spent the first half of my career working in financial services. I worked at a couple of large local banks in their private wealth and trust areas, uh, for about 10 years right after college. So in that part of my career I had the experience in working with families and managing their, uh, trust concerns all of their portfolios and working with really high net worth individuals, business owners. Um, and I purposely made a switch mid-career into fundraising and philanthropy because I wanted to make a deeper impact in community and help our community thrive. So I did a lot the networking, realized that the skills I developed working in financial services, were very transferrable into fundraising. So had the opportunity then to work with a number of local organizations over the past 10 years, um, as a major gifts officer, planned giving officer, in individual giving where I'm working and interfacing directly with individuals, high net worth individuals and families to help them make an impact to organizations they care about.
Luther Ranheim: Build a case, look for ways to help them be more effective in their giving. And then ultimately, uh, joined the St Paul and Minnesota foundations as a gift planner, uh, just about three years ago. And, um, in this role I have the opportunity to really help people more broadly in philanthropy because I'm not raising money for a specific organization. I am helping people set up the apparatus to fulfill their philanthropic vision and amplify their giving and community. Um, and we do that. And by working with professional advisors, many of the people that you're working with and talking to the advisors that serve business owners as they're thinking about their exit or the same types of advisors I'm speaking with trust and estate attorneys, financial advisors, brokers, CPAs, um, other exit planning strategists. And to let them know how we can serve their clients when they think about their philanthropic and charitable planning. So that's really where I have come from and where I am now.
Ryan Tansom: So what I find interesting, well first of all, the financial background is super dream because it gives you a totally different perspective than just, you know, the, the traditional route into the space that you're in it. And I'm curious what… Explain a little bit about the organization that you're with right now because of the unique strategy that you guys have and the platform. And I think it's just a little bit different than the normal, you know, single off charity where you're just having one specific cause.
Luther Ranheim: Exactly. Yeah. So we are a unique charitable organization. We are a community foundation. The St Paul and Minnesota foundations are over 75 years old. Um, we are the largest community foundation in the state of Minnesota and the 13th largest out of 800 community foundations across the entire country. Um, you know, we have deep roots in Saint Paul, but we have partners across the state of Minnesota. We are the largest foundation in the state and really a key partner for the philanthropic community in many ways. We manage $1.5 billion in assets and these assets are, um, some left to the foundation over over a number of years as unrestricted assets. And the main thing that we do with those unrestricted assets is grant those in the community to charitable organizations to make an impact across a wide area of need in key areas of impact in the community.
Luther Ranheim: So that's really the area we're best known for is making impacting community by direct grant making to nonprofit organizations. The other area and the area of the foundation of which I am part of is our philanthropic services team. Um, and that is a group of individuals that are really focused on working with individuals and families and organizations to help them set up the tools to more effectively manage their philanthropy. So in my role, um, and the work we do, we are not talking with a professional advisors, as I mentioned previously, um, and helping their clients set up what are known as donor-advised funds. Um, and I'm happy to give you an overview of donor advice funds if that would be helpful as well.
Ryan Tansom: So I, yeah, no, I definitely want to get into this. What I was thinking. So we can kind of take this in a, in a good order for the listeners who, you know, and we were chatting a little bit before the show, you know, one of the things that as we get up into the actual techniques on, you know, the tax planning and how this actually fits into the mechanisms of actually selling your business. So we'll definitely get into that for the listeners. But I think even before that, you know, you and I were chatting about, I had just interviewed as Stephanie Breedlove and a couple of other people while lots of people on the show and a lot of these entrepreneurs where there's this unique part of being an entrepreneur. When you're in the business and you've got, you've got a way to measure how you're doing, you know, you're acquiring clients, you're looking at the balance sheet and it's a very, you know, you've got a lot of good feedback on how well you're doing. How the economy and the customers are valuing you and what you do.
Ryan Tansom: And the challenge with maybe kind of we start this with like what is your definition of philanthropy and how does that work? Cause I know a lot of people in, you know, when we had the business, you're getting bombarded from everybody to just give money, right? So there's the, which is one thing, whether it's, you know, the local legion and the fire department, or if it's a, you know, you're, you know, a nonprofit that's near and dear to your heart where you're writing checks versus, you know, so I think there's maybe this transition that entrepreneurs have from doing stuff like that where you're in the business and you've got a cash flow machine that you're just writing checks from to kind of migrating into the life after business of how do I measure what I'm doing? Right? So I, you know, the people want to feel good and Stephanie even said the capitalist in her misses seeing how she's doing. And so in your definition, kind of give us your, over the different course of your career, you know, what his philanthropy and how, how do we start tackling this issue of just writing checks to actually quantifying the impact that we're having?
Luther Ranheim: Yeah, no, that's a great question. At the very root, the word philanthropy means the love of humankind. And so, you know, I think it's something much deeper than just writing checks to the local legion or the boy scout troop or the people that are coming to you as a business owner and maybe asking you to support this silent auction event or a gala or the annual walk for a certain health related issue or whatever it might be. And there's a lot of that that's very transactional giving. Philanthropy goes much deeper because it really drives as at the, towards your passion as an individual. What has had an impact on your life, whether it's a school that you went to, whether it's your church, whether it's an organization that you have volunteered with, maybe it's a health issue that you or your family members have faced that often drives a deeper connection to wanting to make a significant and meaningful impact.
Luther Ranheim: And so a lot of people don't think that they can be a philanthropist and must, they have millions of dollars. I think often there's a notion that philanthropy is only for the Uber wealthy. Um, and it's actually, I think philanthropy can be anyone that wants to make an impact. And even if they're giving, you know, five or $10 a month to an organization, but they're giving it from a place of, you know, great honor and respect for the organization that had an impact on their life and wanting to make a gift that makes a statement, even if it's a small amount, it can be philanthropy. And so, you know, that's, I think been the greatest joy for me throughout my career is connecting with people and finding out what drives them. Why do you care about this? Cause, why do you want to make an impact? How can, how can we help you live out your passion through making gifts to organizations in the community? So that's kind of the basic part of philanthropy.
Ryan Tansom: Well, and, and what I find it, I mean, literally like so many conversations I've had over the last even week of multiple times, I'm sitting at lunch and you know, the entrepreneur sitting across from me is in their sixties and they're like, yeah, I know I should probably start planning this, or maybe I should sell, but just don't know what I'm gonna do afterwards. And I don't know what I care about. So how do you know, what have you seen over the years? Like that allows the, you know, the fruitful, creative experience of figuring out what you want to identify yourself with, but then how, what are the varying degrees of involvement? Right. And some context behind that question is, you know, writing the check is one thing. But as, as entrepreneurs, I know we all have major control problems and so what happens, you laugh at that. That's a degree of, okay, so I give this money, but I don't like how they're running it. I don't like how they're doing things or like I don't know how to measure my impact. So there's the kind of the two different things of how to identify if I don't know what is important to me and what is possible and then to what degree of involvement is possible in those different things?
Luther Ranheim: Yeah, that's an interesting question because oftentimes we see philanthropy follow involvement. So someone may be asked to join a board of a nonprofit organization, um, by a friend or a colleague at work. And by just getting involved, oftentimes someone will go from not being a donor to becoming a significant supporter of the organization because they've embraced and took on the mission of that organization. And so for people that are entrepreneurial and want to make an impact and see that, um, impact of their gift, oftentimes being on the board or volunteering in a meaningful way is a great way to connect with an organization, get to know the organization. And in a way, you're kind of doing the real-time due diligence on getting to know who leads that organization, who benefits from the work of better organization and how does that organization serve the broader community.
Luther Ranheim: And so that will then engender our greater connection and passion and support and nonprofit organizations need people that have business acumen and understanding to help them be more efficient, reduce overlap and drag in their expenses, and make sure that they're efficiently delivering services and impacting the community in a way that is commensurate with the support they're getting. And this is a big challenge in fundraising in general is oftentimes you hear these really bad horror stories about particular organizations who solicited donor dollars and the executives are getting paid millions of dollars. And you know, as fundraisers, you know, it's our job to make sure that we uphold the highest ethical standards and that we're delivering results for our donors and make sure that they know that their donor, their dollars, but they're a to an organization are going to be well used and well accounted for.
Luther Ranheim: And so, you know, that's, that's something that's key to the, to the industry. And so the effective philanthropy and you know, but at the same time understanding that it costs money to raise money. Um, so having that balance, understanding that if you want to raise significant dollars for an organization, you have to compensate the fundraisers at a a fair level as well. And so these are huge philosophical arguments about philanthropy and how fundraising works in community. But these are all important things. But I think that drive and people that are self starters and our entrepreneurs and business owners, I want to see under the hood and understand how it all works.
Ryan Tansom: I totally agree with what you're saying and what really caught my attention is, you know, philanthropy and follows involvement and you know, a lot like, so is there, I'm just curious like with, with the sheer quantity of nonprofits that you end up working with and like the good success stories of finding, having an entrepreneur find passion in something, what they're doing and then being able to feel good about giving afterwards is how do you like, how do you foster and like pull out what they're, what they're interested in and what they should potentially be doing to identify which, you know, nonprofits or boards or, you know, what level or degree that they should be involved in. Cause I was, I interviewed, I don't know if you're familiar at the halftime institute. Um, they're, uh, they're, they're kind of big on this whole from success to significance. And it was more of like, okay, you had an it company, you don't have to just go be on the board or give money. You can literally go help them build their network or something. And you just kind of identifying like literally what do you want to do in the evolvement?
Luther Ranheim: That's, I mean really it is about sitting down with people and having several conversations. Um, and so it's a little different at the community foundation versus the, Oh, if I'm a major gifts officer for the local cultural institutions like the orchestra, the opera, um, you know, in that role as a major gifts officer, um, I'm connecting with individuals and families over several meetings over maybe sometimes up to maybe years to drive towards making a significant philanthropic impact in that organization. And so it may start very small by just getting to know that donor and understanding. Did you play music as a kid? Did your kids play music in school? Why is music important to you? Why are the arts important to you? Why is arts education important to you? Um, so really, um, having a purposeful conversation about, you know, what is it that drives you? Um, and then what are your talents and what are your interests and what are your skill sets?
Luther Ranheim: So if you're looking at involving someone, um, as a volunteer in the organization, where can their counts and time be best utilized? And if you're looking towards bringing in someone as a new significant donor to the organization, helping build such a strong connection, but it's, they feel they can feel really good about making a significant, you know, five or six figure gift to a particular organization because they know that their input has been heard. The organization is investing those resources in a way that they are happy and proud of so that they can turn around five years from now and be like, I funded that program and I've seen the impact that it had and I want to do it all over again. Or I want to leave a legacy to that organization because they've demonstrated that. So, yeah, it's a lot of like what we're doing right now and what you're doing with people as they're transitioning out of businesses. Just having conversations and understanding what their passion is.
Ryan Tansom: Which makes a ton of sense. And I think some of the challenges that I see Luther, which make, you know what, that's the ideal kind of situation that you talked about it and there's a couple of different ways we can go with this, but you know, a lot of the times, and we don't have, a lot of the times it's like, oh my gosh, I sold now I want to mitigate taxes versus doing the heavy lifting up front. And so, and then I know we're going to get into some of the tactical stuff on how to act because all entrepreneurs want to save money on taxes, right? And so if we can do something else with the money that's beneficial, that's great, but it's not, I think it's not accomplishing the thing and that's the Rut, which you know, even like in there, that example, that makes a lot of sense. And how to find, okay. It's the, how do you find the charities that you're interested in? You know what I mean? And also there's the, there's, it's less about the money. I think half the time it's more about like the owners that have, you know, the whole kind of the title of the podcast, life after business. It's like what they want. They want to be, they want to be involved in something, to have an identity, to have people appreciate the value that they have in themselves as a talent. So how do you, how do you fix that? Or how do you, how do you line up all those stars?
Luther Ranheim: You know? And I think that's where we're really uniquely situated as a community foundation in how we can work with individuals and families. You know, we're able to sort of sit down and we're not asking people to make a gift to a specific cause or program. We're, again, I think I mentioned earlier, um, setting up the apparatus, the tools and providing them the forum to make the impact. And that all comes back towards, you know, our work. And community because we are grant making and making an impact and community as stewards of assets that have been left to the foundation over the years. We are able to transfer that expertise to our fund holders. So if someone wants to work with a community foundation we can then help them through that very daunting process of identifying organizations that are doing great work, that are making an impact and align with their mission, their vision and values and interests.
Luther Ranheim: And so, you know, that's probably one of the more rewarding parts of the work we do. And it's actually, I think something that sets us apart as a community foundation from, from you know, maybe larger filling the national providers of donor advise funds like a vanguard or Schwab or fidelity, you know, as a local community foundation with local people on the ground. We are able to sort of come together with our, our, our donors and help them be very purposeful about having that conversation to drive at what organizations or what, what's been important to you, what, what are you interested in, what are your values as a family or an individual? And how can we match those values and interests to help you almost create your own charitable mission statement, which then allows you to use that as a framework with our help to connect to organizations that we are able to lift out for you.
Ryan Tansom: I think it's really interesting because I think that that's one of the most daunting tasks out of all this stuff for entrepreneurs that are trying to identify with some, you know, some charity or nonprofit that is near like, it's like how do you find it? The matchmaking is the hardest part, not only for your interest, but then also like what if I said I wanted to like, you know, I would love operations and I want to help do that or I want to help raise money. Like it's the, it's the passion, but it's also like the level of involvement and other than just pulling up Google or talking to other people, it's very difficult to figure out what are the ways to actually check a lot of the boxes that I want to accomplish as myself and my family.
Luther Ranheim: Yeah. I think that's, that's one of the biggest challenges. And I think it actually hampers people from being able to step forward and become a philanthropist and give and feel good about it because oftentimes, maybe they get to a point where they've, you know, invested their entire life and building a business and a lot about their business and how they want it to transition that business. But they had never really thought much about philanthropy. Um, and so now they're at a point where, you know, it's life after business, the title of your podcast, what's next? How do I now turn and pivot towards a meaningful engagement in that next phase? And so, you know, I don't want to go and look on Google or try to say, Oh, here's an interest of mine. You want to put it in Google and I'm going to get a hundred organizations that are doing work in that space if I'm lucky. Um, but by partnering with a local expert, you know, in a community foundation, we're able to sit down and help understand, you know, are you, do care about operations? Do you care about hunger or housing or arts education or racial equity? Um, and how can we help connect you with the organizations that are really moving the needle in that space. And the reason why we're able to be really competent and making those connections is because we're oftentimes putting our own foundation assets to work for those organizations.
Ryan Tansom: Which is interesting because it just personal story, Luther, is after we sold this is gone. Yeah. So this is five years ago, four and a half years ago. Right afterwards. And I was literally trying to figure out a way to get involved and no joke, I had a list of all of these charities I was calling people cause I was like I want to not just sit on a board and you know you have meetings for meeting's purposes but like to use my skill sets because I wasn't going in every day and I didn't have all these things that I was putting all my experiences that I was able to put to work and I had called. So mental health is very, very near dear to my heart, cause I got family that are, you know, on the different family trees that struggle with it. And I got the crazy entrepreneur monkey brain instead of some other things. And I was like, you know what, I want to get involved and I want, I know the system's broken. And I had charities that literally wouldn't call me back. I'm like my dad and I just sold their business and like I want to get involved, I want to help, no response. Hey, here's me, my connections, our money, like nothing? And it's just so it's like that's infuriating.
Luther Ranheim: Yeah, it is. It's frustrating because you were at a spot where you were ready to make an impact and you weren't getting the response that you would hope you would. Um, and you know, again, that's where it's oftentimes like business. It's who do you know and who can you pick up the phone and call. Um, you know, and in that case, you maybe didn't have a network in the mental health field per se, but that's again where the community foundation, because of our connections in community, are able to say, here's people we know at these three or four organizations, let's put you in touch with the right person at that organization who's maybe looking for board members or the person who's looking for, you know, maybe some expertise around operations or streamlining financials or you know, the ultimate charitable contributions. Um, you know, and so that's where we can take that step out of the, basically take out the middle man because, you know, obviously we have those connections as a, an organization and community and we can hopefully bridge that gap. So that you're not frustrated, you feel that you're having, you know, meaningful connections with people that would actually take you up on your interest and get you involved?
Ryan Tansom: Yeah. You're totally right. And it's, it's, you know, and I always think about the interesting dynamics that, cause I've sat on a board before a couple of them and like, oh, there's like their own internal politics of, you know, people protecting their, their little sandbox and their salaries and they don't, you know, they feel threatened by other outsiders. And so there's just a bunch of unique dynamics I think that go into this whole play, which, which aren't, which is all normal and I'll make sense, but it's, it, there's barriers to that entry and connecting the dots from the entrepreneurs, the, the sheer quantity. Like you and I are talking about these boomers who are gonna like they're gonna have that, we're going to have so much excess inventory of skill sets and knowledge and talent and money that doesn't have anything to do. So it's like there's gotta be ways to connect all these dots because there's a significant amount of value that can be created in the whole transition.
Luther Ranheim: Very much so. Very much so. Yeah. And I think there's a, there's a great need. There's, I mean, there's a never ending need or support for the nonprofit sector at large. Um, uh, philanthropic support, especially from individuals, foundations and corporations are constantly evolving the way they make impact in community. And so the nonprofit sector is continuing looking more towards individuals and families to make that philanthropic impact. Um, and I think, you know, in today's times the nonprofit sector also cannot rely on government funding for the levels maybe that it had in the past. And again, so that's been pushed back towards individuals. So maybe one of the, you know, the silver linings of the coming baby boomers retiring, transitioning businesses, that significant transfer of wealth hopefully will be that more assets can get deployed to the organizations in the nonprofit sector where there are areas of great need. And then, you know, by involving people in making gifts to those organizations, hopefully leveraging their expertise as well, whether it's by being board members or being advocates or going and reading to kids in a school or you know, whatever it might be, utilizing your unique skill set to make an impact in a way that's broader than just giving back.
Ryan Tansom: So Luthar, in those kinds of situations as, as the transitions happens to these, you know, these connections are meeting had. How, how do you track your return on the investment, whether it's the money or your involvement. I think that's, you know, other than just handing out a certain amount of meals or reading a certain amount of books, is there a way to like measure the, that you're having in the specific niche that you are focused on?
Luther Ranheim: Yeah, I mean that's a whole nother area of foundation work and so it's kind of a little bit more out of my wheel house, the measurement and evaluation. But anytime a foundation makes a grant to a nonprofit, they want accountability. Um, and so often there is a required recording, um, that comes along with that grant, you know, make a grant of $100,000 over two years to an organization. We're going to ask her a report on how is that money being spent and are the objectives that you set forth in that grant application being met. And so that gets into some significant metrics and evaluation. And we have an entire division at the foundation that's all about learning and evaluation and our grants making the intended impact. And so, you know, if an organization demonstrates year-over-year that they're making the impact, they're driving change, they're achieving the objectives that they laid out in the grant application that resulted in our, um, making a funding decision, they're going to continue to receive funding.
Luther Ranheim: At the same time, we also don't want organizations to be completely dependent on funding from one source. So we also are not going to fund an organization forever just because they're doing great work. You know, we want to make sure that we're helping them learn to be self sustainable, identify other sources. And so taking that expertise in evaluation and looking at the return on investment of the grants that we're making, we're able to then share that expertise and understanding with people that we work with as our fund holders. And so that's, you know, as part of the whole process that we worked through on, you know, assessing interest and vision and values as a family. You know, once you've identified an organization that aligns with all of that, um, and you make a gift, you want to see, did that gift actually get used, um, to drive the change that you were seeking or make an impact for the organization in the way you had hoped. So we are very uniquely situated to help individual fund holders and families seek accountability and, um, make sure that they are getting that desired Roi, uh, on their charitable investment.
Ryan Tansom: It's interesting too that, which makes a bunch of sense. And I'm like, I'm just kind of picturing, because I've got a friend or he, he just got called by a nonprofit for money and he's like, all right, show me what I want. Pretty much he's like, show me your financials, who's getting paid what, how much goes to the actual cause and like, and he's just tearing through that. So that's what a lot of people have the experiences. So does that team of yours, like they kind of go through the, I mean, literally like almost like a private equity firm would do for a business where they're like, hey, show me what you're doing. What is like, what's the maturity of like, you know, your financials, the salaries, how are you measuring that stuff? Do you guys kind of go through a process like that or do you lend help to them to do that or like what's, what's that whole like super interesting? Yeah, multiple levels.
Luther Ranheim: I mean, any organization that applies to the foundation for a grant is going to have to go through. We're going to do some due diligence on that organization. We are going to review financials. We're going to look at who their executive team is, who their board is, and um, look at the programs that they've been delivering. And then we also do site visits. We'll go talk to that organization and get to know who they are and what they're trying to do. Um, and sometimes we'll meet with an organization. I mean we get thousands more grant applications at the foundation than we're ever able to fund. Um, and so, you know, part of what we're doing is going out and doing site visits, getting to know organizations. And our program officers at the foundation are really the most expert in this work. And that's why they do this work.
Luther Ranheim: As they, they know these organizations, they go out, they know the questions to ask to assess their viability, um, their, their health. And sometimes they'll say, you know, look, we think that you might be a great organization to receive funding from us in the future, but here are the five steps that we would recommend you implement over the next two to three years. And then also, we oftentimes, if we think an organization has that potential, we will fund capacity building. So then we will invest in the organization actually developing that infrastructure, whether it's fundraising infrastructure, whether it's accounting, you know, whether it's, um, specific program expertise. So we do different types of grantmaking here, whether it's program-related to a specific initiative or whether its basic operations or capacity building. So, you know, we've tried to understand where organizations are kind to get to and fund them at the right time in their life cycle.
Ryan Tansom: Super Cool. That's awesome. And you know, as we're kind of shifting into this tactical kind of part of the conversation, he and I know a lot of the listeners are going, okay, well how do I use, I'm, I'm agreeing on a lot of this stuff and how do I use, mitigate my taxes and use charitable donations or philanthropy as part of my exit plan and my, my legacy afterwards and to kind of tee up and get some context of that part. Uh, Luther in the grow the five growth and exit planning principles and the process that we have. The second, you know, so the first one is the vision of the business. Like what do you want for the businesses, legacy, disrupted industry. Everybody's got their own why for their business. The second one is that your financial targets. And so this is used as the foundation to be able to peer all the different exit options are the different things in, in, in put it in perspective.
Ryan Tansom: So, you know, it's like, okay, what's your target? You know, you used to do this in the back in the financial industry. What's your target passive lifetime income? And then you back in at worth balance sheet and understanding how your business fits into that. Which, and the reason I'm kind of given this context is because once you've identified those big targets, then you might understand like, hey, I don't need this much for the business. Or you know, anything above and beyond, this is going to go to the state or the federal government, or you know, there's gotta be gift in our family estate planning involved in this. So that you start, once you've got that foundation under, you know, understanding, then you can start adding additional dots and bricks on top of that foundation to do different things like what you're talking about. And so I'm curious, maybe you can kind of set the landscape on the different kinds of technical ways and then kinda rally back and forth of the different ways that we've seen things go good and bad.
Luther Ranheim: Yeah, no, that's a great question. And that's really where, you know, oftentimes people come to us because they've had that conversation about their why and their financial targets. And it's through the advice of their outside advisors. They've come to realize that they are going to yield far more than they ever dreamed up in the sale or transition of a business. You know, the most common thing that happens to us is we talk to an advisor and their clients post sale. They come to us and they say, you know, we sold our business this year. We have a huge income tax liability. We want to offset that by making a gift into a donor-advised fund and we're happy to help them. Um, and it's, uh, a great, uh, thing to do and help them set up that fund to start living out their philanthropic goals. But I think the big area of, I guess lack of understanding in the community is that if we know about an exit plan and can be a partner with professional advisors and their clients as they're three to five years out from an exit plan, we can make philanthropy part of that strategy. And they're, the best way to do that is, and I think where this the foundation is uniquely situated is, we're able to receive non-cash assets into donor advised funds. And so maybe just quickly, right…
Ryan Tansom: Why don't you give me your, your, the basic overview of a donor-advised fund and how it's used in everything. So I'd probably just interrupted you about to do that.
Luther Ranheim: Great. Um, yeah, I mean a donor advised fund it, you know, for lack of a better phrase is like a charitable checking account. You're basically setting aside a pool of assets that will be earmarked for charitable giving. And there are a number of people that offer a donor advised funds in the marketplace. Large financial institutions offer donor advised funds. Religious organizations is opera donor advised funds, higher education institutions offer donor advised funds, but then community foundations, um, it's really where we shine because of our localized expertise and connection, um, are highly skilled team, um, that really is able to help advise our donors, um, um, impacting community. And so a donor advice fund is basically established by making a gift to a charitable entity. In this case, I found a community foundation and the foundation then stewards those assets and you retain the right to recommend the grants from that fund over the next several years or all in one year.
Luther Ranheim: Sometimes people will set up a notary advised fund in one year and um, grant out all of the assets from that fund at one year. Other times as part of a business sale, people will, you know, put $150,000, half a million, million dollars into a donor advised fund and they'll use that as their charitable giving pot of money for the next 10, 20 years. Um, so it allows people to make us have the tool to make charitable impact on their time horizon. But what's nice is it allows you to take the charitable deduction all in the year you make a gift into the fund. So if you had a huge tax year this year and you want to offset that with $100,000 gift, you can deduct that up to the extent allowable by your tax situation, from your taxes, and then recommend grants from that over the next number of years. And we often see this come into play towards the end of the year in December. It's really the busiest time of year for us people coming to us and saying, Hey, I want to make a gift. I need to make it my, my CPA told me I need to make a charitable gift by year end, but I don't know who to give to. So I want to just set up a fund with you guys and then we can figure it out all later. So they're able to quickly make that gift. And then from there we can start working with them, uh, over the intervening years.
Ryan Tansom: So in that donor advised fund then, so because, so you're saying that it's, you know, you can have real estate, whether it's your, you know, shares of your business or whether it's actual cash or stocks or bonds, so that's pretty much any asset that you, that is underneath your umbrella of your net worth.
Luther Ranheim: Yes. Yeah, exactly. And that's what's unique is often traditionally donor advised funds are funded with cash gifts and stock gifts. But you know, again, we're, we're, we're able to sort of step out and be a more in depth advisor. And part of that transition is that we're able to accept non-cash assets into donor advised funds. So S-Corp, C-Corp, real estate, LLCs, commodities. We've accepted highly depreciated farm equipment into a donor advised fund, and then conducted the sale. We've accepted soybeans and um, more recently, um, we've accepted our first gifts of crypto currency donor advised funds.
Ryan Tansom: That's awesome. So, so I'm super interested in this as the tactical parts of, you know, and this is why doing this ahead of time, it makes it such a big difference because you know, if there's a interview for the listeners with the Ryan Turbis where we were talking about calculating net proceeds you in years and advances or you're looking at your sale where, so like an Rsa, we had a, you know, 35 or 25,000 square foot building in Minneapolis, which is near your guy's place. And then there's the, the business, there's inventory, there's all these different things where if you're able to, you know, if you're able to give it to and gift it to the donor advised fund you, you know, whether it's capital gains or depreciation recapture or ordinary income, how… Can you explain the write offs? And then also how does that happen when it goes over to you, what is, what are the different tax implications or lack of with what you guys get based on what is currently was in the owner's portfolio.
Luther Ranheim: Sure. Yeah. So, I mean it wouldn't, we're working with a complex asset, a non-cash asset gift into the donor advised fund, we're obviously, the most important thing to know is that we have to be far out ahead of the sale because if it's too close in time to the sale, the IRS could actually look back at a contribution of a non-cash asset into a donor advised fund and disallow that transaction. So that's why we need to be out in front of us sale and having the conversation with a business owner, you know, two to three years ahead of time. So if a professional advisor is working with their business owner client, then they start saying, you know, I'm thinking of selling in the next couple of years. You know, I, I'm concerned about my legacy. I'm looking forward a way to make an impact after the sale.
Luther Ranheim: Maybe be used some of the proceeds of that sale. Um, you know, we would be happy to have, be part of that conversation because then we can start talking about the whole process. And it's a fairly significant process because we're going to do a lot of due diligence on the front end as part of that, um, potential gift of non cash assets into a donor advised fund. So we're going to want to look at the financials. We're going to want to look at governing documents of the organization. We're going to want to look at any pending agreements they may have and we're going to do our own due diligence and legal review to make sure that we can actually accept it. You know, in the case of the best way to illustrate this is, you know, if someone has a piece of property that used to have a gas station on it, we would, uh, you know, that might be a challenging property for us to accept because it could have significant environmental concerns and remediation issues, you know, but if it's a, it's a lake cabin or it's a industrial property where we can assess the environmental readiness of the property to be transferred and realize we're not going to take on my ability, um, you know, smooth that process out. But that's part of the due diligence because ultimately the foundations are going to become a owner in that asset.
Ryan Tansom: You're a buyer, you're a normal buyer. Even though you're getting it for free technically. I mean you're a buyer, you're taking on all the responsibilities and the, and the liabilities of it.
Luther Ranheim: Exactly. And so we don't want to end up having an asset that will be a negative to tractor to the foundation's not assets. And so we're going to do that due diligence to make sure that we're accepting and asset with the ultimate goal of what's the marketability of that acid. And so this is part of the whole conversation because when we accept an acid into the donor to a donor advised fund, we're not accepting it with the intent to hold it for the long term because a closely held business asset, we can't turn around and make $250 grants of that asset, um, the proceeds of that asset in the community until we sold it. So really our intent is as part of the due diligence to assess the value along with you. And so if a business owner is looking at the marketability and potential for sale, um, you know, we're going to want to understand that too. Are there buyers that you know of or types of people or a market for this asset? Because if we also identify an asset's not marketable, we probably wouldn't be able to accept it. Um, and so which makes sense. Um, and so then, you know, once we're able to um, understand that there is a market for it, um, and we've dotted all the i's, crossed all the t's on the due diligence, we're going to accept that asset and then look to turn around and sell that as quickly as possible because that's how we then turn that asset that was maybe illiquid for you into your charitable fund. And then you can start really having the impact and using what was your closely held business now to make an impact in community.
Ryan Tansom: So a couple of cool things that I want to dive into is, so one is like when the assets move over there, let's say there's distributions or rent income or any of that stuff coming out of it, is that immediately go to you guys or does the owner get to reap some of those benefits or is it completely out of their portfolio once it's over to you guys?
Luther Ranheim: It would depend on the structure. Um, you know, we would work with them if there is a significant income stream coming, you know, we would maybe realize that for a brief holding period if we held onto the asset for a month while the sale's happening. But again then if we start looking out even further and digging in, we have a concern about UBTI, unrelated business taxable income. And as a charitable foundation, we can't receive that type of income for a period of time. So we have certain concerns about liquidating and asset and getting it out of our portfolio and turning it into equity, you know, the assets rather than holding it and receiving that business taxable income. Because then again, the IRS will come down on us as a five one c three charity. Um, because we're not in the business of running a, you know, rental, uh, a commercial rental, a apartment or something along those lines.
Ryan Tansom: So then when you're selling, which makes so much sense. And then when you, so when you're going to go sell those acids, let's say it's a fully depreciated bunch of equipment or, or even, you know, a very low basis business and whether it's a stock or an asset sale and so, but like what does the tax structure or lack of for you guys, so there's erosion to the government or like explain kind of how that whole thing works.
Luther Ranheim: Yeah, so I mean, the most important part, and it's part of accepting an acid is we're going to request and work with the owner for a fully qualified appraisal of the asset. And that's really going to set the baseline for the tax ability and the treatment of that asset on that individual business owners or families, um, taxes. So the biggest piece is if it's a very low basis acid and they have, you know, maybe they started the company out of there their garage for and have a $10,000 basis and now it's $10 million. That's a significant capital gain issue they're looking at. By contributing the asset into the donor advised fund. They are basically stepping away from that capital gain issue because the step up in basis with the charitable gift. And so that's why this is a uh, an attractive alternative as part of a business transition is avoiding capital gains. The other nice part in that sort of the double win here is done when they file their income taxes, they are able to then take a fair market value deduction on the appraised value of that gift on the year they made the gift.
Ryan Tansom: Well and so here's what I find and this is kind of just totally affirms what you and I are talking about a couple of years in advances. You're kind of putting this jigsaw puzzle together where I look at it like what we did with our business operations sale and then the building like at some, I mean just the sheer quantity of taxes that you pay is just insane and where, you can literally, there's got to it with your CPA and your tax attorney and your help or someone, any anybody on the team. And there's gonna be have to lots of people that say okay there's a tipping point that says you can give this much of your business stock or your building or whatever it is. We're that gift directly offsets the taxes that you'd pay where literally it's either the same or you're making more money while giving it to you guys instead of to the government.
Luther Ranheim: Exactly. That's right on. I mean and I think that's what oftentimes surprises people is that if they just even add that charitable component, they're probably actually going to end up pocketing more money on the sale than they would have otherwise.
Ryan Tansom: Yeah. Cause like I think about like, I mean cause you guys, you guys get the asset, you guys didn't get to sell it. You guys get profit, you get profit and liquidity from it. But then that gets, should be offset. That fair market value should be completely offset. Like look, if we would've given you our building, we could offset on the other taxes that were paid on the asset sale, which was ordinary income.
Luther Ranheim: Exactly. Yep. It's a win-win. I mean that's the thing why I love talking about this to advisers in the community that I connect with on a regular basis because I think a lot of people don't realize that this is a tool that can be leveraged. But when it is, it is leveraged to such positive outcomes for the individual, the advisor who works with the individuals and ultimately it's the community. Right? You know, making that impact and community and all the stuff that we've talked about previously about philanthropy and how people engage and understand organizations. I mean this is the best possible outcome where someone can see this all come together, have a successful sale of their business. Make sure their family is taken care of, but also make, uh, you know, set up that apparatus from that business sale to make a long-standing commitment to bettering the community.
Ryan Tansom: Well, and if you think of all the, through with some foresight on this is like you could say, cause you know, for the listeners when you're kind of trying to reverse back into, so if you want 200 grand a year in passive income, then you need 5 million bucks in the market at, chugging away at 7%. So then, okay, well what does my business need to be net in order to, you know, solve that equation or something along those lines. If you set up this whole situation, you can, you can understand what you can, what you can afford to give away and or to make sure that you're still hitting your nut, but then able to work with someone like you learn. And not only is that financially make a bunch of sense for tax purposes and like the whole strategic planning that, but what I find even a layer above that more intriguing about this is the weirdest dynamic of selling your business.
Ryan Tansom: For our, for us or for a lot of these entrepreneurs is your business has usually funded your charitable donations, right? So if I think about it, we had, you know, very large vendors and clients and stuff like that. So what we want it to go like make an impact. We just shake the trees of all the people that owe us favors, right? And then we get, and we give them money ourselves, we do a big golf tournament or whatever. And so all of that stuff makes a bunch of sense. But when you sell your business, you're like, I need this money so I'm not going to give it away. You know what I mean? So all of a sudden you kind of, you, you lose your platform to be able to give the, with this, if you were to like shifted over and still hit your financial targets, but you know, with your, with your donor advised fund, like you can literally give yourself another platform to still have control over something instead of going in like just becoming a, you know, a sideline participant.
Luther Ranheim: Yeah. And then most importantly, you have now a platform for multigenerational family philanthropy. A donor advised fund allows you an opportunity to engage your kids and our grandkids in philanthropy. Um, and then the most important part, even aside from that is legacy because a donor advised fund is ultimately a great companion piece to an overall estate plan. So if you're looking to leave a charitable component through your estate plan, you can work to create a provision where your estate plan pours into your donor advised fund. And then over time, as your philanthropic interests may change, you identify new needs and community, you're able to tweak your donor advised fund every time you want to update your philanthropic interests and passions. You don't need to update your estate plan every single time you identify a new charitable interest. Um, so it's, there's a lot of other, you know, far greater benefits towards setting up an apparatus that allows for multigenerational family, Philanthropic planning, but also what are your ultimate legacy and how do you want to leave an impact.
Luther Ranheim: And maybe it's a perpetual impact where your donor advice fund, it's going to make grants into this community far after you're gone. Or maybe there's a provision where you're going to spend, you're going to make stipulations that your donor advice fund is spent down to a zero by within 10 years of you pass it. So there's areas then where we're able to really have a very in depth conversation about how do you want to leave a legacy, how do you want to be remembered? How do you want to support this when you're no longer around? And you know, if you've been a pillar of the community with your business and you've been making an impact and supporting the golf tournament and doing these terrible things your whole life, why wouldn't you want to have a structure to do that after you're no longer around?
Ryan Tansom: So 100% and I'm curious if you got, as we kinda wrap it up here, is there, is there like a really, maybe if you want to highlight something that we've talked about or leave kind of your big takeaway or maybe even tell us the story of like a good situation that someone preplanning or they kind of just paint the picture and how should this, how should someone look at this and what are the kind of the steps that they should do and whether it's a story you tell her, you know, and you want to highlight something you've already said or something that we haven't touched on?
Luther Ranheim: Yeah, I mean I think the biggest thing that I, you know, I, I think I mentioned earlier that I don't think people realize that this was something that they can do. A lot of people don't think of themselves, first of all, it's philanthropists. Um, a lot of people who have spent their entire life and blood, sweat and tears of building a business have really focused solely on that. So they've maybe never thought about the philanthropic impact they could make. Um, and so I think letting people know and getting that word out, and I think that's the biggest thing that I want to communicate is that there is a way to make philanthropic planning and philanthropy part of a business exit to benefit the community and benefit yourself and you know, ultimately feel really good about what you've done. You know, we've worked with several individuals and you know, we, those past couple of years I've, uh, I've had the opportunity to work with a number of individuals who have done this exact thing and being able to sit down with a family as we're thinking about transitioning a business and with their advisors and present this philanthropic tool to see their eyes light up and to see them say, wow, I never even knew I could do that.
Luther Ranheim: And to see the possibility. And the gears start turning as to, Oh wow, I can do this, I can do that and you can help me with this, especially around the strategy and you know, making an impact in a strategic, meaningful way. You know, that I think is just the most exciting thing to see. And so, you know, looking for opportunities for advisors to, um, you know, invite us in as a philanthropic expert. That's really where we said, you know, we are a community foundation. We're, you know, we're a nonprofit organization. So at the end of the day, you know, any fees that we collect as part of any of these processes and then any money we make as in being invested right back into the community. And we're, we're not, um, you know, we're not charging a fee to come out and advise and have a conversation. So I, I think the number one takeaway is that if anyone that you're talking to, anyone that might be hearing this podcast is a, is working with a family that's thinking about exiting a business in the coming years, they should at least invite us in to have a conversation to talk about the possibilities that might be present from adding a charitable component to a business transaction.
Luther Ranheim: Yeah. And even if for some reason someone's going I'm still not really sold on it, which I don't know how you really could be after your, your comments, but the, you know, the, if you really bring it down to the brass taxes is like you could literally give a donor advised fund money instead of giving to the government and still net the same amount of money. So it's like, just if there's any other reason other than the fact that they would rather allocate the money to someone like yourself instead of the government, just think about it. Right. And it's, you know, it's just, you know, we take that, that mystery away from philanthropy because a lot of people are daunted. We talked earlier about how you just don't even know where to begin. If you want to make a gift to an organization that alone all lines with an interest, you're kind of left to your own devices oftentimes. And you know, we exist for the sole purpose of helping broaden philanthropic expression and engagement in our community. And that's, you know, that's the greatest gift that we can leave behind and the legacy we can leave is making that impact.
Ryan Tansom: Well. And then for the listeners who would like it in order to think about the fun things like get your m and A's, emerging acquisition, CPA and tax and I'm an m and a attorney understanding what is the deal structure that you want to sell. So whether it's an asset or a stock sale, whoever it's going to be sold to, you know, get that stuff rock solid or a good understanding before sitting down because you want to know what like what, what do you have to work with? Most of the time we don't have a clue because like even the stories that you've even said, like my CPA told me, I've got to give something and I guarantee you it was in November, the CPA told the, um, or, or the owner or the owner wasn't listening to the CPA, you know, like 12 months ago when the CPA… So what happens is there's a disconnect of this planning where it's like sit down and actually start running some forecasts because then they, they'll actually know what they've got to work with for like a company like yours.
Luther Ranheim: Yeah, exactly. And then, you know, hopefully we can be a resource to help achieve that ultimate vision and you know, people maybe their eyes open to an opportunity that they never thought they might've had.
Ryan Tansom: So if someone is in a different state that's listening to this, what are other organizations like yours that are across the u s that they should start reaching out to if they don't want to give to St Paul Minneapolis?
Luther Ranheim: Saint Paul and Minnesota foundations. Yeah.
Ryan Tansom: Yes, I meant local.
Luther Ranheim: No problem. Um, so I would say that, um, if there are people in any states, your local community foundation is often a great resource. Most large community foundations across the country are adept in this type of work. And so I would suggest that they contact their local community foundation. But also, um, we have a good network here. So I oftentimes will field calls from people and they're looking for a community foundation like ours and another part of the country. And we're, um, we're able to connect them with our peers because obviously we're in this space. We're talking to our peers and colleagues across the country. So, you know, even a call to us. Uh, and to me at the Saint Paul in Minnesota foundations, I would be able to point people in the right direction.
Ryan Tansom: So if they want to reach out to you, what is the best contact way and what do you prefer?
Luther Ranheim: Yeah. You know, the best way to reach me is either by phone or email at the Saint Paul and Minnesota foundations. I'll give up my, my direct line at the foundation is (651) 325-4206 and my email address is Luther, l u t h e R. Dot. Ranheim r a n h e i [email protected] and I would be happy to visit with anyone on the phone, meet for coffee or for lunch to talk about the particular situation they're looking at and see how we could, uh, we could lend a hand.
Ryan Tansom: Thank you so much for coming on the show. Had a blast.
Luther Ranheim: Ryan, I really appreciate the opportunity to visit with you and look forward to being a resource going forward for you as well.
Takeaways
Ryan Tansom: Did you made it all the way to the episode. I appreciate you sticking in there. I hope you actually took some major takeaways from this episode, Luther here. A couple of my big takeaways and some action items for you. One is because we're all money driven, we all are entrepreneurs and we have a specific drive towards optimizing what we've done. Trying to figure out that if you're going to have a large tax burden from selling your real estate or your business, try and figure out if you can give that money to someone else and you can write that off and you can net the same amount. It's a no brainer, so don't give it to the government, give it to someone else that can use it for better purposes. The second big takeaway is that I don't expect any entrepreneur to be completely satisfied with writing a blank check or to take a more passive role on the board of a charity.
Ryan Tansom: Those two things are extremely necessary and everybody should think about whether that's right for them, but I also know from all the entrepreneurs that I know we're action oriented, we're passionate people, and we want to be valued and use all the experience and knowledge that we've accumulated for running in the businesses that we have. So really trying to figure out what topics are really near and dear to your heart. How can you really make an investment of time and energy and experience into something that where you can really move the needle, whether it's education or mental health or healthcare, or you want to actually provide a specific operational function at one of these charities. All of those things are possibilities, so start pulling the thread with an organization like Luther's and really give yourself the freedom and the time and the effort to be able to explore what you like and what you don't like.
Ryan Tansom: You don't have to make it a decision right off the bat. So two takeaways, financial ramifications of the tax plan and how this could work for you and your philanthropy. The second one is your purpose and the role and responsibility that you have in the philanthropy world, a charitable donation world, and making sure that you find what is working for you and near and dear to your heart. If you enjoy this episode, share it with a friend. Go onto Itunes, give me a rating. If you have guests that you think would be awesome for the show to share their exit stories or to share a technical piece of advice around growing and exiting a company, please reach out to me on linkedin, onto my email. All the contact information is on our GEXP Collaborative website. So with that, I will see you next week.