About the Host
Ryan is an entrepreneur, podcast host of the show Life After Business and the co-owner of Solidity Financial. Having personally experienced the hazards of selling a business, he joined up with his friend Brandon Wood to educate others on the process. Through their business (Solidity Financial), they provide a platform for entrepreneurs called Growth and Exit Planning that helps in exit planning, value building and financial management.
About the Guest
He has developed a trusted reputation over the last 25 years at senior-leadership posts in the fast-paced and high-profile world of motorsports where he delivered dynamic business results and – more importantly to him – nurtured long-standing relationships.
Having led numerous crisis and reputation management efforts over his career, Mike is a go-to resource for those in repair mode, but also those wanting proactive-branding and business-driving strategies.
Mike’s experiences in motorsports led him to write the acclaimed book Reputation Shift — 5 High-Performance Truths for Success. The book delivers actionable strategies and step-by-step plans for readers to protect, harness, and strengthen one of their most valuable and precious assets — their reputations!
Mike is a graduate of Elon University where he earned a degree in Corporate Communications and where he was lucky enough to meet his future wife. He, his wife and three children live in Charlotte, North Carolina.
If you listen, you will learn:
- Mike’s background in the motorsports industry.
- The generational attitude toward reputation and the impact of social media.
- Mike’s definition of reputation.
- The 2 keys to reputation.
- The Reputation Equation.
- How to consciously build your reputation.
- The 3 steps to designing your reputation.
- How to be proactive in your reputation building.
- Why you need to manage your reputation yourself.
Mike Mooney: You know, the idea of identity and reputation, again in my opinion is, is through consistency, right? What are people seeing of you you in various situations? Because as we all know, we're, we're dynamic people that aren't, aren't linear, this just workers, you know, we have families, there's community, there is church, there's our industry and the civic organizations. Right? So the idea is and where I see most of the challenge when I'm talking with leaders about this and you're helping to build the reputation of build the brand, it's they're focused on one area.
Announcer: Welcome to Life After Business, the podcast where your host, Ryan Tansom, brings you all the information you need to exit your company and explore what life can be like on the other side.
Ryan Tansom: Hey everybody and welcome back to the Life After Business podcast. This is episode 123. Today's episode was a fun one for me because it's really relevant to me and what I'm doing with this podcast, but I also think it's extremely relevant today with anybody that's in a leadership position that is dealing with leading people, having exposure and technology, and then running a business, especially because today's episode is about your reputation and Mike Moody's on the show today because he wrote a book called Reputation Shift, the Lessons from Pit Road to the Board Room and I really enjoyed talking to Mike because he has decades of experience in the world of reputation because of what he was doing with people's brands in Nascar and how he was managing PR. And what we were talking about today is how your reputation as a leader and as an entrepreneur directly impacts how the whole world sees you.
Ryan Tansom: The value of your business, the culture of your employees, and what potential buyers are going to see when they're looking at the artwork of accompany that you've created. Because your reputation trickles into every part of your business. From the customers you work with, from the employees you hire, from how you handle problems. And what you've done and said that is now pretty much permanently out into the ether of the Internet and the worldwide web. So we talk about all the different ways that you can really get awareness of what you're doing, what you're saying, how you're actually handling decisions in the present moment because each one of those micro decisions compound on top of each other to build your reputation. And I think what we've seen a lot over the last couple of years is people that never realized that those decisions build their reputation and then when the technology layers on top of it, everything becomes transparent. So being very conscious and aware of the things that you're doing as you're building your business and as you're, as you're leading people, interacting with your clients, your vendors, your suppliers, building this reputation because your company's value is going to be directly impacted on what you've built. And then as a buyer comes in and looks at this thing that you've created, not only are they going to look at the financials, they're going to say, do we trust this person? Do we want to actually engage with this company and what are the people like that this person hired? All of those things are so wrapped up into you the consistency of who you are and how people view you and trust you. So I really think today's episode is an important one as it's relevant to everybody, no matter who you are. And I think it's something that we all need to be very conscious of because today's a little bit different with the transparency that we have and I think it's far better to start making little decisions in better context today than it is to sit at that table with a buyer that doesn't trust you because of things that you've done in the past that you could have changed. So I really hope you enjoy this episode with Mike. And without further ado, here's Mike Mooney.
Announcer: This episode of Life After Business is sponsored by GEXP Collaborative. Their proven process gives you clarity on all of your exit options and how those options impact your financial success, timing and future happiness. Sell your company on your timeframe to the buyer of your choice, at the price you want.
Ryan Tansom: Mike, how you doing?
Mike Mooney: I'm doing great man. Thank you for having me on.
Ryan Tansom: Yeah, you bet. I, uh, you got a very interesting topic that you have put your stake in, in our, uh, riding and I can't wait to dive into because I think it's a, it's a topic of reputation I think is more important now than ever and all this stuff that we've seen in the news, but all this stuff outside of that is, it's really just like you had said prior to this call, is that it, it's something that every person deals with, whether you're an entrepreneur or even individual. And so for the listeners, let's go back and just say, okay, let's maybe give them a couple of the milestones of how did you get into... Where did your career start off on and how did you kind of come to the point where you wrote the book?
Mike Mooney: Yeah. Yeah. So, um, and again, thanks for having me on. I'm excited about this and excited to share the message for sure. Um, so really this is something for me started 25 years ago, was in the motor sports industry for 25 years, primarily working in communications, brand building, working with a lot of great brands, Mercedes Benz, Walmart, tylenol, Lowe's home improvement, to name a few of them and I've got to see the sport from a couple of different perspectives from the agency side of the world to the actual sponsor, the brand corporate side as well as the, uh, the sports property working for race teams. And throughout that time a lot of my work was around how do you not only build and bridge, um, that connection between the brand and the consumer. It just happened to be using motorsports as that, as that vehicle, pun intended, to really help drive sales and drive connection. But the underpinning of all that Ryan was this whole idea of protecting, shaping, uh, and managing reputation.
Mike Mooney: And not just for the but for the executives, for the drivers and athletes that I would work with. So you know, over that time, you know, a lot of the work was always seemed to always be on the back end after the proverbial crap hit the fan. It was always that what now what do we do? And, you know, this idea of being more proactive, being more intentional, being more deliberate with the way that we were not only protecting and building, but also valuing our reputation is something that really started to bubble up. And it led me to writing a book about that. And it started off. The funny thing is it started off as being more for the corporate brand side of it, but as I was writing it and the technology was evolving so rapidly, it's like holy cow, now this is for people.
Mike Mooney: This isn't just for, for, for the brand or the organization, because the reality is that a brand's reputation is built upon the shoulders of the people who walk in every day. You know. So it kind of evolved and shifted as, as I was writing it, based on what I was seeing, you know, in the media and, and how technology was, was this rapidly changing the way that we had to look at reputation and more important the opportunity it can, it could, you know, bring, but also the impact that it could have for us. You know, so you mentioned earlier, it was funny what you see in the headlines and why it's important. I like to use the phrase when people say, well, you know, who is this message for? Basically if you have skin and a heartbeat, then you need to hear it.
Ryan Tansom: And if you've got any kind of interaction with other humans on a daily basis, right?
Mike Mooney: Absolutely. Absolutely. So, so that, that was the idea. Ryan was like, okay, so how do we take this, this idea of reputation, put it in a way that people can recognize the value, but then say, what can we do proactively? Because it's a fundamental shift and empowerment in my opinion, from asking the question, what if let's think about what we're doing and be more deliberate versus what now stop. It's too late.
Ryan Tansom: Well, and this is what's interesting too, and we'll be able to unpack a lot of this stuff for the listeners and um, and like some actual stuff and what they could be doing, you know, and, and what is. So when you think you knew what you were given some stats to because like the reputation and the value that that is in the, if you'd noticed and, as we kind of set some of the stage, um, is, have you noticed Mike, that okay, all of this crap that has come to light of all these people. And one of the, the theory, the theories, and I don't know if you've got it in any of your research, is that a lot of these people, they grew up and they were going through a lot of their adulthood literally without any exposure. So they got to essentially do whatever they wanted and they weren't called out on it, then versus like, you know, even the Gen Z, we're like, they live, they grow up in a world where they know everything's out there. And I, I kind of fall in between there is, are you, is there a correlation between how people manage themselves?
Mike Mooney: Man in there, that there's a lot in that. There's a lot in that. So let me, let me take a step back on that and, and kind of break that down because you've got some really great points in there. The first thing is a lot of the people now who are, who are the business owners who may be in position is looking to sell and move on, or they're in senior leadership positions in companies. You're right, they did grow up at a time when you didn't have social media. People weren't walking around as citizen journalists with their cameras rolling. I can tell you I'm thankful for that as well. [Ryan interjects: Um, or an iphone.] Right, exactly right. I mean, we're always on, right? They didn't grow up at that. But here's, here's the reality. And we're seeing this with the me too movement and a lot of these other issues popping up as it doesn't matter anymore, right?
Mike Mooney: Just because it happened in the past, it's still going to be brought up. So, so there, there is this sort of, um, reality that we're living in right now from a reputation standpoint and the impact that we're seeing. People do need to be mindful of what they have done in the past. And then, you know, the hope is that people look at a body of work. Okay. I mean, a lot of these conversations now from things that happened 20, 30 years ago were snapshots in time. Look, I'd like to say to the person I was when I was 18 or 19 is much different than who I am today at 47 hands down. Right? So the idea is to look back at the body of work that, that, uh, that the person has done throughout the time that building their reputation. So that, that's one part.
Mike Mooney: The other about the Gen Zs and you're, you're right on. They've grown up with the exposure. They've grown up with this idea of always being on, but they don't always understand the impact. That's the, that's the scary part. They were okay with it. They understand it, but they don't understand the impact. And the impact today. It could be everything from but the, the pass on an interview to a pass on a promotion, right to it. It could be in relationships, networking. I mean it goes, the list goes on and on. So it's then getting the people to realize that and the Gen z's, you know, to, to realize the actual value of the reputations.
Ryan Tansom: It's a super good point. And you know, as before we even continue to like, well, what is your definition that you have some cool stuff in the book. What is your definition of a reputation? And just continue the rest of this, like what is it that you're referring to? What is the combination of variables that make that up in your opinion.
Mike Mooney: Yeah. So, um, there are a lot of definitions out there for reputation. My simple one is your reputation speaks for you when you aren't there to speak for yourself. Pretty simple. I mean, when, when, when you think about what it truly does for you, it is. They're speaking on your behalf. So the question is, what's it saying and when you look at what makes up the reputation there, there were a lot of different factors I typically to key in on to a. One is values and the other is trust. You know, and a big point that I try to make and all this Ryan is, is that. Well, I'll back up, you know, I was doing a talk a few months ago and I had a person in the audience, they will, it seems like you kind of, you know, manipulating, you know, what people think of you and building your reputation and doing these, you know, plotting out, you know, the way you act and what you say and how you interact with people. It seems sort of disingenuous. I said, that's a really interesting point. That's a good point actually. I'm glad you brought it up. I said, it's only disingenuous if it's not true to you. But if it's not authentic to you, then yes, you are being disingenuous. You are manipulating a situation. So that's why I really make a big point that when you think about the reputation, your reputation, it's got to start with values, it's gotta to start with your values. So in, in the book I lay out an equation which is kind of funny from a communications guy who's never really great in math, but I'm like, okay, I got to visualize this, you know, and, and the, the equation is simply this, your values influence your decisions, your decisions influenced your behavior, your consistent behavior over time is what becomes your reputation. So values plus decisions plus behavior over time equals reputation all starts.
Ryan Tansom: I saw that I was just like totally makes sense. If you had one equation, the communication is the guy who came up with you did, you did it right.
Mike Mooney: Awesome. Awesome. Nailed it.
Ryan Tansom: What I think what's really interesting, Mike, is that you have. So you know, as we kind of relate this to entrepreneurs who have a unique thing that's been going on as they become more than their businesses, where there's a lot of. You and I were talking about, there's a lot of challenges with that. A lot of these entrepreneurs or business owners where they are, their businesses and there's this whole decoupling that should happen with them and then who are they and how does that work and how do you determine what the reputation isn't. It trickles into their trade industry to all like what their competitors say about them to their employees. I mean it is a big deal because they've been in the limelight even before the quote unquote social media or the Internet kind of took that. So they've always been there. So what is your experience of all those variables and then you had mentioned a stat that I want you to kind of recite the value, the perceived value of that company and what the owner has done over time.
Mike Mooney: Yeah. Yeah. So, so it is, it's an interesting sort of like, not that you have, if you want to think of the visual of the business and the owner, their personality and Gosh, let's not even throw an ego. Okay, let's, let's just. Because it's a huge part and that's typically what gets things wadded up and knotted up, you know, is, is the ego and in all of this, you know, uh, because it was the same that we to use as, as unfortunately when you get to, you know, a pretty high point in your career, your industry, wherever it might be, you start to believe your own PR, right? So you've got to keep yourself grounded in, in, in that sense. So you know, the idea of identity and reputation, again in my opinion, is, is through consistency, right? What are people seeing of you in various situations?
Mike Mooney: Because as we all know, we're, we're dynamic people that aren't, aren't linear, just workers, you know, we have families, there's community, there's church, there's our industry in the civic organizations, right? So the idea is if I see most of the, of the challenge when I'm talking with leaders about this and helping to build the reputation of build the brand, it's, they're focused in one area. It's just my business. Well, okay, great. Well what if the business goes away? To your point, what if it's sold? What you know then what, who are you, what are you? So the diversification of your activity and the consistency that people see throughout all those touch points and experiences are what's going to drive your overall reputation. And to your point with the that stat, yeah. Basically, you know, the, the research has shown that that 50 percent of a company's value is tied to their CEO's reputation and, and you know, to, to give the simple example, you can see that in publicly traded companies, not to the 50 percent mark, but you'll see when a new CEO comes in, what is their stock to go up or down based upon the reputation of the results that they have delivered in their previous work, right?
Mike Mooney: So reputation, sometimes people think it's a soft skill. They think it's a nice to have. I mean, I would argue not across the board, it ties to the key measurements and business. So here are a couple of others that, that'll throw out your ryan in terms of the importance and where reputation ties in, um, new business, right? We all love new business, lifeblood of the company, right? Got to keep becoming in 65 percent of all new business comes through referrals. 100 percent based upon your reputation and referral rates. So you've got to ask yourself, are we getting the referrals or we getting business in. That could be an indicator of how you are and how their reputation is for your organization. You take it to, um, to your employees. Crazy stat right now. 84 percent of employees would leave their current employer to go work for a company has a better reputation.
Mike Mooney: So close your eyes for a second. I ask your listeners close your eyes for a second and imagine 84 percent of your employees walking out the door.
Ryan Tansom: And who would they go to and why?
Mike Mooney: Gosh, you're exactly right. You're exactly right. Surely a competitor you know or, or you know, just out altogether, but you think about the intellectual capital that the, that the walked out, the institutional knowledge that just walked out the door because of something that you as the leader of the organization could have done something about, if you're thinking about it proactively.
Ryan Tansom: So then what's, let's peel it back even one more layer to is... Okay. So where are, what are the different things that you see maybe a couple of things in the inconsistency is maybe in those different silos. So what are the challenges are the breaking points that you see of people that impact the reputation that they might not know is that. So maybe you could kind of maybe some of the fundamentals of the reputation. Then we can kind of talk about what are the ways that people see that stuff?
Mike Mooney: Yeah. Yeah. You know, um, here's a really simple one. Where it breaks off, Ryan, is that people don't think that what they do and the small moments matter. Let me think about it. Life is a series of small moments strung together. okay. And they always think I've got to be on and be doing the right things when people are watching, when it matters, when I'm beyond, I got to make that big decision. Whatever it might be. But you know where people are watching most day to day, the interactions you have, the decisions you make, the things you say are the things that you don't say, you know, as a leader, those, those typically are those break points where you know, people aren't looking at just the one big moment in time. There are those defining moments, there are those tylenol moments in our lives where you've got to make a, a huge decision. You've got to be on your game because a lot of writing on it. Reality is, man, that's not, that's maybe two percent more time. So when you mean the other 98 percent, how were you living out the values? How are you and bringing that to life?
Ryan Tansom: Do you see like that? Is it because of a lot of people are just reacting in the moment instead of actually consciously thinking about what they are? And is there a correlation between that and not having like a set set of standards of how they make decisions, whether you call them values or principles or wherever it is.
Mike Mooney: So I had a, um, I had a CEO tell me this about two months ago. Said Mike, I, I feel like I've got two decisions. I can either make great company or I can make next quarter, right? Think about that. I can make a great company or I can make next quarter. So where that lead me to believe, I said, man, I, I, I get it. I understand you have an immense pressure you have, you have shareholders, you have a large employee base, a lot of responsibility. I don't think that those two terms have to be mutually exclusive, right? So I think if you build a great organization, you won't have to worry about next quarter or the quarter after that or the quarter after that. But to your, to your question is I really do believe that that we are living in such a reactionary world right now where it so much is coming at us.
Mike Mooney: So much is coming out of something, especially with business owners right now, new data, new information, new insights and trends, you know, different departments needing different things. Holy cow, you know, you make a plan, but wow, what good is when, when you get the next curve ball coming in. So I think it really is people coming down to saying I've got to prioritize and right now I'm going to prioritize the business and the product over over me or my reputation is sort of falls down that value chain. Unfortunately unfortunately that that's just what I'm seeing and hearing right now.
Ryan Tansom: So like, and then which makes a ton of sense. I think that prioritization gets flipped flopped because of pressures of needing to make the financial markets or whatever it is. And do you have. It is also something and like there's a Ray Dahlia wrote a book called Principles. I don't know if you've heard of that book, but it's about like how the principles that he abused his life and work and all this stuff. But it's like, yeah, consciously saying like if you were sitting across me, we're on video right now, but if you were sitting across from me like how do I deal with my phone when it buzzes? Like, you know, like literally consciously think about this. I'm going to be staring Mike in the face and not pick up my phone because that's the kind of person I want to be versus like just randomly doing stuff, which I think a lot of people do.
Mike Mooney: But, but even like the little cues that you might make. So something that I've noticed gentlemen did when I had a meeting with him and I said, wow, I really respected it and I actually do it now. And it was the smallest thing, man. We sat down to meet. He's a busy guy. He's, he's running three companies. Well we sat down and he had his phone and you know what he did with his phone, he had to here and he just turned it down and he put it on for lot of table face down. Just that little gesture. Just that little gesture told me that he was thinking about our time together, the value he was going to give to that. But that meant enough that he was going to turn that phone down for the time that we had. Right. So that gets back to your point. I don't think that people are really consciously engaging in thinking about the impact. I think, you know, in ways where we're losing connection with a personal touch that makes sense. The personal connections meaningful, which again, it gets back to reputation if you want to tie that back, you know, I think we can all think of examples when we're meeting with somebody and you're in the middle of something and their phone buzzes and what do they do? Look right down and they pick it up. Right, right. But, but that's the other part of it too, you know, for, for leaders, and this is, this is off topic perhaps, but I really think, no, I believe that leaders today need to be ingraining the, these, these courtesies back and training these younger and younger, but up and down the chain because that's, I, I, we all fall into it at any age, so I don't want to just pin it on the younger generation.
Ryan Tansom: Can I just interject there for a second too is I think that sometimes that I noticed that... It's funny because I think that the millennials kind of have almost some of the best etiquette. The baby boomers didn't grow up with this stuff that they don't actually know how to manage themselves and the Gen z is like literally are just plugged in in like just trudging along. So everything's spans all the different, the different generations.
Mike Mooney: Exactly. Right. Exactly. Right. So that was kind of a, a little little off ramp there but, but still I think is valid and important when we were talking about reputation. It's the interaction and the respect that you're showing somebody when you, when you were in that moment.
Ryan Tansom: So then if let's talk about consciously building the reputation that you want, that wouldn't. You said earlier that it's your authentic genuine self and how you are. How do you bridge those? How do you build the plan and say here's who I am or who I want to be and maybe there's a process there that you can give us some insight on it and then how do I actually go do that? Because I think as we tie that back into what that means to have as a business and the eventual exit, and then afterwards, I think there's a way that you can tie what you're talking about here into the, the essentially building the New Vision and the new person that you want to be.
Mike Mooney: Yeah. Yeah. So, so there's, again, a lot to go through and I'll try to kind of keep it high level for the conversation that, that we've got. But again, it all starts with the values, you know, I mean, it takes a person time to sit back and it's not enough. What we typically rush to the do. We typically rush, okay, I, I don't have time for the pre work. I just, I know what I've got to do. Let me go do it. You got to ask yourself why? Why am I doing that? Why am I doing it that way? Is it the way that I should be doing it that really aligns with who I am? So I would say, again, it all starts with values and making sure that you're, you're dialed in with your values. Is it, you know, of trust is a courtesy or consideration, is it about, you know, whatever that is for you.
Mike Mooney: And then quite honestly it is consciously ensuring that you're living into that in your daily interactions with people and all the different areas. Like I was saying before, not just in work, not just with your family, not just with church, because I think we see people you could probably think of folks in your life that you've come across that you see them in one place and they're one way and you see them as a church and there are another way. Are you seeing them at, you know, uh, the restaurant like, I don't know. I don't know who you are, right? Because there's, the consistency is, isn't there? So again, I start with values that you figured out. How do you plug that in to all the areas of, of your life from there and use them as, as your filters. I use a big in, in scouting as, as a kid.
Mike Mooney: And, and, and my son proud dad plug got his eagle scout earlier in the year. Um, so we did a lot, a lot of time out backpacking out in the back country and um, there there's this, this idea of the one degree of behavior, Ryan, right, where if you take a compass right ahead and you have a, you have your heading, you put on your due north. If you're one degree off that heading of, of north or wherever you're going, we'll just call it north for the example. You're one degree off and you go, you know, you go a mile, okay, you're going to be about 90 feet off of where you started. You can still see where, where you need to be. You can correct get over there and stay on your journey. If you stay on that heading of one degree off from Charlotte, North Carolina, and fly to Los Angeles when you land, you're more than 50 miles off course.
Mike Mooney: All right, so I love that example because it really illustrates the impact of short term and longterm decisions that are just a little bit off of your values, right? We can rationalize things so darn well these days into, into decisions, right? And doing something for the short-term gain, um, versus thinking of long-term. So I would say that's another part where people got to ground and think about, am I, am I really? Am I off a little bit on my arm? Okay. So staying true to where you're going. And the other part too, man, I'll tell you that is really important and people get scared about is an order to understand your reputation and, and say this is what I want it to be. Have to know what it is now. Right? Right. And that scares the crap out of people, man. Because that means now I gotta look in the mirror and it's not going to be just me looking in the mirror. I'm going to have to ask other people. I'm going to have to really take a good hard look at how I've treated people, how I've worked with what I've, what I've produced. Right? So one of the things in the book, one of the tips that I put in there, you know, showing people how to do a reputation audit, how to really go out there and get a good sense of where am I right now, where's that baseline? Because you can't fix something. You can't strengthen something if you don't know what it is that you're working with.
Ryan Tansom: So in the different, you know, the different actions that you keep talking about like that one degrees in the thing. So I think a lot of people can think about the interactions that they have with people in face to face, like our phone, you know, example and stuff like that. But what are other ways that you see that the Internet and social media has exacerbated the situation? And before you even answer that question, I don't know. I feel like Gary Vanerchuck it all.
Mike Mooney: Yeah.
Ryan Tansom: Yeah, yeah. He, I mean he, he would be an awesome gear for you to end up doing an interview with or something like that because he. I don't know, maybe I can find a way to make a connection. But it, like I said, he said that like, you know, the Internet just makes everybody more clear of who they are, right. I mean, it's not like they're changing anybody, it's just more visual, more exposure into how they actually are as a person. So what are those different ways that you see that the Internet and the social media and the avenues that people make decisions in that, that, you know, if someone's listening and they don't know, what else do I do? No, that is digital world, that angle access stuff.
Mike Mooney: Yeah. So it's funny, I reminds me of a, um, I have a cartoon that I saw where it's a guy sitting across the table being interviewed and the gentleman who's the interviewing a manager says, well, according to Linkedin it looks like, you know, you're very detail oriented, you're driven and you produce great results, but according to facebook, you like Jack Daniels and you're very comfortable with your body. And I love that because you know, that that speaks to, again, this idea of consistency, right in the channels. And, and, and more importantly, what are we putting out there? Um, and, and you're, you're, you're right. What Gary is saying about what the technology allows us to do, a being out there is true, but the challenge is that it only creates a mosaic we rarely get unless we have a personal relationship where I see you and I interact with you and in many different situations, the rest of what we see are mosaics.
Mike Mooney: Just bits and pieces of what you'd see on Linkedin or instagram or twitter or facebook or what have you. So that's why it's more important than ever that you really think about what is it you're putting out there and is it representing who I want to be, what I stand for and what matters to me. And then that, the key thing then is stringing that altogether so that people, if they do check you out on Linkedin, they see one thing, but it also is backed up and validated by what they might see on your instagram feed or what they might see you posting on twitter or you're on facebook, friends, whatever that might be. So I would say, you know it, it's first about, you know, you've got to do the pre work which is inside. You got to dig in and figure out what do I stand for, what do I want to be, what do I want it to be?
Mike Mooney: Sometimes I even use this example in it's been used before is, you know, start with your legacy. What do you want your legacy to be? [inaudible], right? Where do those things, and it's not just the bad, I sold my company, made a killing, you know, it's, it's what did you do in your family life? What'd you do in your community? Right? So look at it from that multidimensional standpoint, ride out that legacy statement of what it is 20 years from now, and then work backwards to say, how am I living into that? Okay, so that, that's one step you can do. The other then is the internal work of getting your values lined up and making sure that you're really square with yourself and being true with yourself. Right? And doing that work and then then it's deployment, okay, how am I going to deploy this?
Mike Mooney: What are the stories that I can tell? What are the ways that that line back to my values, what's the way I can I can create and deliver value to people with the skills that I have, right? And then I've acquired over these years that are going to help drive people forward. Right? And then where do I put that? Where are the places that I go to tell those stories? Right now? That's a very truncated example of sort of how you take it from the internal to then identifying where you deploy it, what you're saying and that how it seen across the channels. But um, you know, I, I, I'd say that it's critical. It's critical that, that people are being consistent and over time, you know, that's the whole thing. It's not the quick fix.
Ryan Tansom: Right. And so rob, what he did was, which I find very interesting what you just described about taking your values, the of that and then putting the story out there is a lot of these entrepreneurs, they have a struggle, Mike, for finding, you know, like I bet you half the people are like, I'm so sick of talking about my business, you know what I mean? Like it's really that simple. We're like, you know, it becomes like it becomes a salary and distributions and they've been in the industry for 20 years and it's a financial asset for them happening. So then they're like, okay, so great Mike. I believe everything you're saying, but I don't want to talk about manage it or print anymore. I mean who am I? And that's where there's this whole like identity piece and then it comes down to, okay, well how do you use your reputation to help your business but also help you identify who you are in this. Rob Dubet So he literally owned a printing business and he started, it was like meditation and it was all about meditation and nothing will actually better your life. And so he started creating this whole brand around himself and that he felt consistent and authentic in, even though he still owned company companies. I guess my point of that story is that I think they can do what you're saying because if I were to listen to the podcast and I heard that, I just don't want to talk about any of that stuff anymore and I don't know how to build a brand of me that, that and without impacting the my business. Does that make sense?
Mike Mooney: No, it, it does. It does. You know, and I'm, I'm working with, with some people were having that conversation where there either, you know, it had been working in an industry for 20 plus years and had been at the top of their game and now they've jumped out with a small startup and they've got to start from scratch and they'll say, Mike, I've spent 20 years building my company's brand, but where the heck do I stand in this? You know, and what do I do?
Mike Mooney: I think out of the people who were sitting there going to your point, oh crap, I got to think about this now because I've just sold my company, you know, and I would say you're not, you're not too late, but man, the clock is ticking, you know, if you're at that point, it's never too late, but you got to get on it. You've got to be thinking about that, about that now, you know. So I try to take people through, you know, a couple of different stages on that for, for the room, brandon and you know, basically again, starting with the values and what do you want to be known for, you know, what, what are those, what are those, those points, right? But then I threw out the RTBS RTBS, right? Reasons to believe, right? So you say that you want to be known for, you know, a excellent in your world, right?
Mike Mooney: For helping business owners and families understand how to package, sell and move to that whole very tedious and challenging process. What are the reasons to believe? Why should I believe you, right? So you've got to take stock and the work that you've done and the experience that you have to be able to say, no, well, this is why I've got the game because I've lived in and I've done this. Okay, well great. Now that you've got that, now where do you want to put that were where, where does it go? Like, and, and is it, is it an offshoot? Would you want to create content that's going to help educate people? Okay, well who are those people? Let's identify the target audiences and then what are you going to say to them? Why does it matter? You know, to them, right? So you get this sort of like rhythmic process that you go through that that does for people who have been in the seat for a long time and they're jumping out, can still leverage their experience through those reasons to believe. And that's something that I, I just, again, it takes that introspective time for people to sit there and say, okay, you know, I may not want to talk about my business anymore, but the business has done a lot for me and it's actually going to help catapult me into the next chapter of my life.
Ryan Tansom: Well, and what's really cool, Mike, is a dentist who introduced us. He also helped me get Jay and um, some of the halftime institute people, which is this whole amazing. And what I think that correlates, what you just said is there's this s curve, right? And what a lot of these for the listeners who are thinking about, okay, where do I fit right now? Where's my business? And all that to do this while you have your cash flow machine and the connections and your vendors and your customers, your employees is so much easier than sitting in your office by yourself with a bunch of money in the bank with no connection.
Mike Mooney: Now what now? What? Because here's the thing, you know what, what people I have to remember in, in this conversation, especially with what you just illustrated there, because it's so true, Ryan, it's one word, relevance. Relevance, right? And, and relevance is, is that one thing that will cut through the clutter that will get people to put the phone down, that will get them to kind of minimize the screen. So to hear something right? Well, and you've got to ask yourself, when am I most relevant? Right? And it's when you're in the seat, like you said, it's when you're doing the work, it's when you can pour more value into other people. When you can take that experience and help drive something, you can do something in the industry that's going to make a radical change for your industry, not just your organization, right? People think larger than yourself when you're a leader. I mean that, that's one of my opinion, but that's just one of the, the core principles of leadership is to think beyond yourself and your organization. What are you doing for your industry to move it forward? Right? So you got to be thinking about that now when your game planning all these things. So when I was talking about earlier in the conversation about being more deliberate in the things you're doing, it's not manipulation. It's not. It's design. It's design. Right?
Ryan Tansom: Well, and it's interesting and I don't want to be too self serving here or not even self serving, but like honestly Mike...
Mike Mooney: It's your show man do it.
Ryan Tansom: That's why I did the podcast. So literally the last guy I interviewed actually I did two back to back. So for the listeners, I actually do a little bit of preparatory work, but he's like, how do you monetize your podcast? I'm like, I don't. And he's like, what? And a lot of people are still so confused and I'm like, I've engineered a reason like I'm talking to you right now. This is awesome. And so there's a reason that I get to spread my word that I believe in, right? It and it feels good, but it's like, yeah, it's an engineered deliverable. Right. And I just, I specifically don't do blogs because I can't spell. So I like to talk. And then, you know, video is a little bit...
Mike Mooney: So do the video log, man, take it and do it that way.
Ryan Tansom: I know, but then there's lighting and then I don't want to look like which project and puts it.
Mike Mooney: Yeah, but, but, but you know what men though, it's so true. But, but what you just said is what like 97 percent of people struggle with right now, right? Is that, that they're looking for perfection. They're looking forward to, to put the ball in play, brother, you know that you'll be a man. He knew that. I mean, I know you know that you just got to put the ball in play and it's amazing. It's amazing what will happen.
Ryan Tansom: And I'll say if you should go back and listen to my first podcast, I haven't done it for long time because it's so terrible. Mike, I took me like three weeks to launch that 15 minutes segment. Have a stomach ache about it.
Mike Mooney: I love it man. I love it. Well listen that, there, there was, there was something I read years ago that, that was a designer for a tech firm and he said, look, if you don't look back at your first product with embarrassment then you waited too long.
Ryan Tansom: Check that box!
Mike Mooney: Get it out there and then you'll make, make the necessary improvements. But I'll say from my personal experience, man, so look, I as 25 years in the motorsports industry was senior leadership positions, uh, managing tens of millions of dollars in partnership and sponsorship money for various partners. And, and, and, um, I was the seed for what I'm doing right now was planted 12 years ago. Ryan, 12 years ago this idea came about and I was just, okay, what am I going to do with this? What am I going to do with this? And I would just keep working at it. And I, my wife gave me a hard time. She'd be like, what are you working on this presentation? You don't present it to anybody involved as material. I'm like, I don't know, I just have to do it. I just have to do it. And then it turned into the book and the book starts going and it was like two and a half years ago that I started really focusing on my instagram feed and focusing on linkedin and the messaging that I'm putting out and you know, being deliberate in how I wanted people to see my brand because I knew that when eventually I don't know when it was going to be quite honest with you, man, I didn't know.
Mike Mooney: Um, I just, I had to stay faithful in the process and when the right time it would show to self, I would know. And I'm just happened to be, you know, in February of this past year. But the thing is when I did transition and rollout, I had a body of work going back for two years, you know, that people could look back to. I had a website up and going and I had blog posts and I had all these things going on that people can look up inventory. Right? That was huge as well. And, and it's the credibility to say, okay, I'm just cash in and now you're trying to reinvent yourself. Now. There's no I am, I look at it more, I'm, I'm evolving myself. It's not a reinvention. It's an evolution because of 25 years of crisis management and reputation, it, this to me, I had no choice.
Mike Mooney: I mean I literally, Ryan would go to bed with reputation in my mind. I wake up in the morning with a reputation on my mind. I just could not get away from it will indeed.
Ryan Tansom: Do you find that? Let's take that thread for a second because I'm thinking about the listeners who are sitting there going, okay, and it kind of goes down to our halftime folks again is what's your purpose? And I think a lot of people, the purpose might not be the business and the business might just be a financial asset for you or it might be your purpose, but what in there? Is it, is it your employees, is it leadership, is it creativity? And then there's a way to take that because again, I think you know, you coming from the marketing it, I don't want the listeners to be scared of this brand or this, you know, like, no, it's just coming. I believe in it and I'd love to hear your input on this is that you find your purpose, then you kind of don't give a shit what people think when you're so authentic to myself that my first podcast or if I do my first video, it's kind of like whatever, because I was so. I enjoyed the process of putting it out there more than I cared about what people were going to specifically say because even though, and I don't know if that contradicts your, your process either. So I'm curious.
Mike Mooney: No Man, no it doesn't. But what it points out quite honestly is that that's the exception, not the norm. I do think more people are waking up right now, um, that, that, that they're, they're, they're, you know, they're not sleep walking anymore. Yeah, I can do this job, but I know there's more out there for me. I just gotta figure out what the heck that is. But people still, I mean, the majority of folks, you know, still walk around with that armor, that protective armor around them that because they don't want to be vulnerable. There's fear in that. So, so ask him to do that, is going to ask them to go to a very uncomfortable place. Like I was talking about what the reputation audit. It's like, what do people really think about me, right? That gets to a very naked place with, with all of us, you know, but I, I would, I'd ask people to start with the question. It's really simple. You know, it's uh, you know, what's your reputation worth? So I'll ask you that question, man. You know, is can put a dollar value. Ryan, can you put a dollar value on your reputation?
Ryan Tansom: And I'm going to go back to the Warren Buffett quote that he was, that he's always, you can sell for a, and I'm going to screw it up and I know you've probably got it in the book, but it's like you can sell it for a million dollars and you can't buy it back for a trillion or whatever. Yes. What is it that?
Mike Mooney: That one in particular as I know, it's just escaping me right now and I apologize, but along those lines, right?
Ryan Tansom: So no matter how much you sell for, you can't, you can't buy it back for like when you tell them whatever it is and you can't, you can't, you know, to go back and answer your question, I think that is curious and we're, this is just totally free flowing here. Is that, to answer the question, I don't even know at this point, but I read this book, Seth Goden just came out with a new book and that's amazing. It's called, This Is Marketing. He has a very similar message to you. It's called permission marketing where people, he said that if you disappeared, people would miss you because of what you've been saying and how consistent and how much value you bring. Which I, that's I, I, and that would be when you would determine how much it's worth I guess. And I don't really want to do that.
Mike Mooney: Well look, I'll let, I'll let you off the hook on it. I love the, I love that question because it was really kind of would help, you know, uh, was the book was born out of, quite honestly, it was like put a dollar value on that, right? Because we always wait till after afterwards. So I usually get three answers to that. All right, so the first one, I'll get some folks who will say, Oh, well, you know, it's 10 x 10 x what I'm making today. Alright. So they're just trying to quantify based on their current salary and they're going to use a multiplier. There's usually that might bankers and you know, the, the financial folks, um, who was just like, no, I'm going to give you an answer. And I say, well, that's fine, but I still think you're undervaluing it. Even at 10 x your way, way under undervaluing and the other, the other one is, you know, um, gosh, I, I, uh, I never really thought of it that way. You know, uh, I, I think it's priceless. Like, well, yeah, it is priceless. But the problem is with that, one quote we want to answer is, I haven't really thought of it that way, is that we typically don't think about is value until after we paid a price, you know, so what price are you willing to pay for that? You know, that, that that's the question, you know, the I would challenge your listeners to, I challenge you to, is to say no, what is it worth to you?
Mike Mooney: And Are you willing to walk away from that just because you didn't give it the time to think about the contribution you can make. And that's really what it comes back to, right? I mean they might think, oh, reputation, that's ego. It's what I want people to think. Well, you know, what, if you were to look at it differently from a more servant, you know, mindset or heart place, it's really about what do I want to contribute and contribute on a daily basis. Maybe you think of it that way, and that may be eases that ego lens a little bit. But that's really what it's about.
Ryan Tansom: Well, and what's interesting that, how you worded that to Mike is that so when, uh, when it kind of, I can go so many different directions with this whenever you're talking about at the practice of the practical of, okay, so if I want to buy your company, so as a buyer, so that's when you don't know what your reputation is worth until that exact situation happen. So you know, on the, on the show we talked about due diligence and quality of earnings and taxes and growing the value and customer base, Blah Blah Blah Blah. But like you said, it's really going to be saying, okay, because it literally, as a buyer, as a business buyer, so much of that is based on trust and understanding that I'm going to be trusting what that seller is telling me. What happens is as a lot a lot of private equity firms or business buyers, Mike, will actually call the customers. [Mike interjects: Yep. Smart]. So that boils all those micro decisions all the way down to how are those customers interacting with customer service? It all trickles downhill and you're not going to know until way too late.
Mike Mooney: Well, and that's exactly right. And it's too late at that point. It's too late. You can't fix it at that point because there someone's going to walk away from the table [inaudible], right?
Mike Mooney: Again, based on something that you could have done and worked with and handled if you've been proactive instead of the what now, what, what do we do now? You know? And, and, and that's where, you know, one of the exercises I like to take groups through on this, uh, on this journey really is the idea of exploring risk, right? People don't like to do that, but I believe that there's huge opportunity in risk and identifying what risk is there. It's your business right now, and I'm not talking about the business resiliency. And then if the power goes down or if you know the boat doesn't make it across the channel. I'm talking about what are the risks that could happen to your organization that are going to impact your reputation. Okay? And it's not just to your company itself. I, I like to take people a step further out and talk about their industry.
Mike Mooney: Right? So as an example, if you were in the home mortgage business, right in say 2008, 2009, right? Right. Great Times for it. But you didn't have to work for Countrywide Mortgage. That if you talk to someone that says, Hey Ryan, what do you do while I'm in home mortgages where the stink of what was happening in that industry was not going to rub off on you right there in lies opportunity, right? If you're looking at what's being said about your industry, what are, what are customers saying about it, where what's going on in the news and then find opportunities to actually stave those off. Like create protection, which then creates distinction, right? You can absolutely now and that that's kind of like the tylenol moment where tylenol had their own issue with their, with their capsules, but they did something that wasn't just good for their particular company, it was across the industry that said the new industry standard that then they can start using and all their promotions, their customer service, their sales. I mean, that's where I challenged business owners and leaders and really think about risk in a way that can actually help them drive their business and reputation.
Ryan Tansom: And I think so there's the big, the big monumental things and I'll give a uh, another example of that too is, and my dad just hammer this into my head for all from a long time ago. We used to have this big when he was barely growing and making like no money back in the early days. One of our big customers, he took an entire order back and just like ate like 100 grand. They were our steep. It was, it was kind of the tylenol moment and it was like, okay, that's a great example and there's a specific hard cost to that, but then, you know, you can't really quantify the reputation thing after that. But I think, you know, outside of those examples, Mike is like, because the small micro ones, and I think I remember what I was going to say earlier, is Robert Kelly, I don't know if you've ever heard of his book Influence and one of the top six ways that people build influence and that's in the, in the psychology of people who, one of them is consistency and how you show up. And so how describe like maybe a little bit more detail what you mean by consistency?
Mike Mooney: Well, it, it is sort of what it says it is in various situations being consistent. Who you say you are, right? It's walking that walk, not just talking, talking the talk. So it really is an ttough. It's not easy. It's not easy because like I said before, you get so many different competing things going on in your head of, of rationalizing a decision for the short term, uh, you know, maybe, you know, just internal fear, uh, of, of failure or whatever it might be or, or the rejection, what have you. But um, no consistency truly is just that it is showing up with those values that you're living out. I mean, I look at organizations like chick filet, so is a great one, right? Where they're consistent with their values, not only in how their leadership shows up, but you see how it's woven through all the different aspects of their business and that their employees buy into it, right?
Mike Mooney: So that's consistency as a leader is not just for you showing up, but if you're looking at your organization is how the rest of your company is showing up and living into it. Now I'll share with you a really scary statistic that I came across earlier in the week from a Gallup poll that said basically 27 percent of employees actually believe their company values. You believe that unfortunately, probably. But that is pretty crazy. Seventy three percent employees don't. How scary is that? Right? And that gets back to authenticity. That gets back to the leadership, right? It comes back there. So, so in, in that space, you think about consistency. There is as individuals, how we're showing up in all of our various situations, which means that we've got a keep our emotions in check, right? We can't fly off the handle, you know? It's the inconsistencies that drive people to distrust you. I'm not sure. So. So which Ryan am I going to get today? Have you ever been around people like that?
Ryan Tansom: Mhm, unfortunately a lot of people and you know, and I don't think people. I totally agree. I think and that's why Robert in his book talks about that is because I want to just consistently, if I'm going to talk to Mike today, is you're going to be short and tempered with me or is he going to be loving and listening and orders and I think that trickles into the whole operations, right? Or Am I going to get my bonus or not? Or Am I going to get this room I not to or how are they going to do with the sales leader? Like how am I going to like age just. And the thing is people just give up and they're just like, screw it. I don't want to like engage with this person anymore because it's too much work.
Mike Mooney: Well, it is. It's draining emotionally, physically, you know, mentally it's all. It's all of those things, you know, that's where it's funny. The word blind spots come up. Right? So, so two things. Let me jump back at one point you said, where you said, Hey Mike, am I going to get today is going to be short and curt is going to be loving and listening. I think there's a place though too, and this is again into values and being transparent and authentic with people that if I'm having a bad day, I want to be able to say, Ryan, look man, I'm having a bad day so I'm probably not going to be all-in on this conversation right now.
Mike Mooney: And if I'm, if I'm a little short, I'm not really you. It's this other stuff that's bleeding into our conversation. Honestly, I think that goes a long way. But I also think that, um, in vulnerability and then there's an amazing strength in vulnerability that I don't think many leaders own or embrace. Quite honestly, because I've always got to be on with my stoic approach to make sure that the troops were following me. I understand that, but I also believe and I've seen an experience where just that little bit of a nod to say, look, I'm dealing with some things right now. So can we either push this call off and talk later or we'll do it, you know, now. Um, but the other part in this idea of blind spots, and this is one of the strategies that I lay out in the book is that we all have them, right?
Mike Mooney: And, and, and when people ask me about racing and motor sports and say, Oh man, you know, the driver's got the most important job. Or is the pit crew, they got the most important job or the crew chief. Actually the most important job is a person named the spotter. Okay. Now the spotter is the person that stands high atop the racetrack and that it got binoculars and they are able to talk to the driver and the crew chief the entire time during the race. And that's that spotter's job to see what's going on in those driver's blind spots when they're driving 200 miles an hour, inches away from each other. So they see what's happened. They can't see it because they're so focused on what's happening outside of the, of the race car. The spotter will tell them, hey man, you got a car on the inside, you've got a car on the outside.
Mike Mooney: Don't go up, don't go down. Or Hey, there's a wreck unfolding in front of you. Get down low fast, right? So you know, I'll, I'll use that analogy and take it out and ask leaders. So who are your spotters? Who are those people in your lives that, that are going to tell you what you need to hear, not just what you want to hear that are going to help you. And they will help save your reputation quite honestly. And, and help you see things that you're just not seeing because you're so focused on the next quarter, right? Or that merger or that deal. So that's something else I'd offer up the folks and that's going to help them with consistency.
Ryan Tansom: I'd.... That is amazing. Advice, because I think, I mean now that if I look at my, my situation, I've got those people, but you don't really articulate it that way until you, you consciously think about it. You're like, oh yeah, totally. Like if I'm, am I, if I'm at showing up differently or this or that, or the other thing though. Like they'll notify you in whether they work or personal and, and that you're going back to your point and then I think we've probably got to of get rolling here is that, is that was the coolest principles that I is that Ray Dalio's book when he said it. Radical truthfulness and radical transparency. Meaningful relationships and meaningful work. Because what happens is it's like the, it's like the bare bones truth reuse it because whether you're upset or not upset, but if you're telling me why that that's what I expect. So I expect Mike to be honest and truthful and all the time, you know, your emotions might change, but like it's just like. And I think that there's a high degree of respect to that and consistency that people... That's what people want.
Mike Mooney: Yes, no, that's, that connection. It goes back to the connection that you're going to treat me like a human and that, you know, I understand. I have things going on in my life. So let's, let's thoughts have that moment right. I'm not going to think any less of you quite honestly. You don't have to give me the details. I don't need to know about all of it. You could just let me just. Okay man, I get it. So I'm going to give you, I'm gonna give you some margin right now to help work through it or I might even say, Hey, let me take some more off your plate to help you out because people generally I do want to help each other, you know?
Ryan Tansom: So because we've talked about a bunch and it's all amazing stuff. If you, for the people that haven't listened to book, we'll have the book, uh, and the, the link in the show notes, but is there anything that is like the big takeaway or action items that you, that we might have mentioned that you want to highlight or something that we haven't talked about that you want to leave with the listeners with?
Mike Mooney: Man, that is a, that is a really tough question. Yeah. You know, because there's, there's a lot to that. You know, I would just say this, that the takeaway, the takeaway for me quite honestly is that if you're not managing your reputation, it's being managed elsewhere. You know, and it's out of your hands. It's out of your hands. So, so would you rather, you know, be involved in that or not? You know, and, and be had the strength and the courage to ask the questions. Ask people, what are you seeing? Am I consistent? Am I inconsistent? Where am I not showing up the way that I think I should, you know, and then have the guts to listen to that and thank them for it and thank them for it.
Ryan Tansom: Amazing advice. Yeah, that's super actual what the, what is the best way for the listeners to get in touch with you to find the book, to find more information to find your reputation?
Mike Mooney: Awesome man. So yeah, you can go to Mike Mooney.com. It's m o n e y. So Mike Mooney.com. You can find the book on Amazon as well, but if you buy it through the site then I get a trigger and I can sign it for you and send it out. Uh, and then, uh, you know, I'm, I'm on Linkedin and then, um, my social handles are at Mike underscore mooney. Find me on twitter and instagram.
Ryan Tansom: That's awesome. Mike had a blast. I'm super happy you came on the show,
Mike Mooney: man. Listen, Ryan, I think even, I think the work you're doing is just so needed. So thank you for putting yourself out there and doing this great work. You're helping a lot of people and thank you for that.
Ryan Tansom: Thanks Mike. Appreciate it.
Ryan Tansom: Well, I help you guys all enjoyed that interview with Mike. This is a really fun topic because it's really the stuff that matters today and as a leader and as an owner of a business, you should be paying attention to every single interaction you have with the people that you come across every single day. Your employees, your vendors, your customers, anybody that you're touching has a ripple effect into what they think about you. What do you think about your business? What they think about your culture, and it is directly related to how people perceive you. Not only internally, but what the future buyers are going to look at you. It's, I really believe that the culture that we create in our companies, that is what's really lasting small giants. Bo Burlingham and there's so many organizations out there talking about the cultures and that culture eats strategy for breakfast.
Ryan Tansom: So if that's the case, then what you're doing trickles into your whole organization and therefore creates your reputation. Your culture is a reflection of you, so whether you're going to do an ESOP, an internal transition or some third party goes to your website, calls your customers, interviews your management. It's all going to come out, so do the right things now because not only will you feel good about it, you will create a really, really lasting impact that is positive with everybody else and you will get more value for your business and have a higher degree of a probability of getting the exit and the potential buyer that you want. So if you're already living every day with intentionality in your interactions of knowing that you're doing the right things, being authentic to yourself, being positive to everybody else, then keep doing it because you will be rewarded on the other end.
Ryan Tansom: But then also if you're not and you're just are really just fighting fires all day long. Knowing that fight those fires with more specific intentional, positive and motives that are true to who you want to be and start creating that person that you want to be because it's going to tie into your business. It's going to ripple through every interaction in every relationship you have in your business and you will get rewarded for it when you eventually exit because it's just the right way to live and it's a lot of work. But I really hope that if there's one takeaway from this episode is that you just, you just think about it because it's worth it. So if you enjoyed the episode, going to Itunes, give us a rating. Otherwise I will see you next week.